The problem with fait! Why we must ban it.

I often wonder how future generations, those that survive the folly of our generation, will see us? Will they be disgusted in the same way we are disgusted by the excesses of the spanish inquisition? Or look upon us with mild bemusement as we look upon ancient myths such as the greek gods of old, like Zews and his ilk.

I for one am an avid opponent of all religious myth, no matter what its called, be it Islam, budism or Christianity.

The problem with faith, and in fact all belief is that they totally control how we act.

As an example, lets imagine that you believed, truly believed! That an expert sniper had you in his crosshairs right now! How would this affect you? how would you act?? Pretty panicky i would imagine

We, the human animal, are pretty simple like that, our beliefs control how we feel and act.

Now if you transfer this thought to religious faith, its easy to see that todays world is in deep shitt indeed!

The secound a person believes they are following the will of the creator of the universe himself. Flying a plane into a building or teaching creationism as a scientific fact, all of a sudden is no biggie at all.

People who think they are in the posession of a book written by the very creator of the universe or if they believe they are capable of interpreting the creators will get dangerous faster than you can say “superstitious bullshitt”

Christians and muslims alike often quote me scripture as if this was some form of killer argument that i should just accept outright without any further thought on the subject. But why schould i? Would they believe there where walking giant trees, called ents, if i quotes tolkiens lord of the rings? Of course not, but for some reason when it comes to their religion they neighter see or hear no evil, in most cases its like talking to a brick wall . People that would normally demand proof, starts taking the most outlandish claims without ever even considering asking a single question.

If i claimed Ents where real they would immediately enquire more and ask for proof before they would aksept any such claim. Yet they willingly believe Jesus can be eaten as a cracker during mass without even raising an eyebrow.

Lets for example say someone claims that the followers of the new testament are inherently peasful and benign.

Lets for arguement sake ignore tha fact that any fift grader could probaly find countless pargraphs in the new testament to contradict this fact. And lets ignore the fact that for a book made by the supposed creator of the universe its quality as a litterary work is utter crapp, by almost any standard. An average low budget tv script could easily pass as a shakesparian masterpice next to any holy book come to think of it.

Why wouldnt god, being all powerfull, just get shakespare to write the bilble for him? (god supposedly created Shakespeare anyway, didnt he?) To make sure it was consitent, meningfull and understandable for anyone who picked up a copy? Or for that matter why bother with a book at all? surely the master and creator of the universe schould be able to communicate more effectively then what is represented in so called holy books?

I am starting to think its wrong to bring the discussion to this level, surely the argument schouldnt be if you can make sence and reference some paragph in a book called holy by some.

The discussion schould be around why the religious idiot in question actually believes that he is in the posesion of a book written by god? And on top of that, that he is able to interpret the will of god from it?

Keeping this and my opening paragraph in mind its easy to see how this really screws the world up, for instance the 15 girls that burned to death in mecca beacause the religious polise where conserned they schould be seen on the street without their head scarfs! Another glaring example is how Iran can sentence rape wictims to death by stoning. Or how the people of the inquisition really believed they where doing gods work by torturing and burning people alive.

Recently we also had the poligamist sect of the latter day saints, that fully believed that it was gods will to rape, beat and impregnate underage girls. Or how about the Jewish mother that tortured her 3 year old son to death with burning cigarettes to drive the devil from him?.

The list of obscene and dangerous behavior as a result of blind faith in meaningless mythology as the absolute will and truth of god is dangerous in the extreme!

My point is: the belief! that someone is in posession of the true will of god is a dangerous, dangerous thing, what will for exampel happen between the nuclear neighbours india and pakistan over the next 10 years? they have pretty diverging ideological views? Dont they?

Nuclear holocaust anyone?

Its enough to make anyone shiver when you consider the conseqvenses of allowing people to freely cling to their mythology, immagine if we allowed the same freedom of belief in the rest of our society! Imagine if the doctor decided to pray instead of treating you simply beacause he believed this to be the best course of action? Or what if a juge believed all red haired people where posessed by the devil? Or the pilot asked god to land the plane for him.

Freedom of belief is dangerous and schould be outlawed.

Freeedom of religion is destructive, stupid, dangerous and counterproductive to humanity as a species.

Anyone schould be able to see that noone schould be allowed to religiously believe anything as they see fit.

Clinging to mytology imagined up by a superstitious, ignorant, brutal, and violent people who would see a wheel barrel as a fantastic breaktrough in teknology is doubtlessly a recepie for disaster.

if we dont remove Religion it could very well bring about the end of civilisation as we know it.

38 Responses to The problem with fait! Why we must ban it.

  1. Mathew Philip Mattathu says:

    Hi EMP . Hope you are cooling your heels on Labour day . ( he he )

    A welcome break from work though all the shops in Germany are closed. That sucks.

    I know that you know how to defend yourself but how can you defend yourself against suicide bombers or people who attack you with guns ? I hope and really wish no asshole tries to attack you . How can you protect your wife and kid all the time ? You are a guy who surely does what he says . I have no doubt about that and that is what i like about you . You surely got the thinking process started but let us see where it goes from here . Enjoy your day off.

  2. Well i am not scared, i know how to defend myself and i will not bow for any kind of treat

    I refuse to cover for anyone, i never have and i never will.

    What kind of example would i be for my kids if i let people with an IQ of 7 push me around.

    I dont know what the end result will be but at least i got the thinking process started.

  3. Mathew Philip Mattathu says:

    We need more than aspirin and you did get people thinking about this new proposal . I am just waiting to see if it will work . Getting people to think is one thing . However, will they ever implement it ? Even if they did ,would it be successful .You are dealing with Islam and Islamic fundamentalists. There is no one as dangerous as radical Islamists. Trust me .

  4. Mathew Philip Mattathu says:

    Well said EMP . Really well said . When you are politically incorrect, you do get a lot of attention . It does get many people at the table and they start to think . Well ,idiots who can’t take criticism will always send you death threats. They are nothing but cowards.

    I would however say that you should take extreme care. See, the thing is I hardly know you but I do think you are one smart ass ( I mean positively ) though I used the word ass. Some idiot who has nothing to lose can just attack you . Think of your wife and kid . Take care of yourself and do not let any idiot ruin your life . I wish we could deal with such idiots. They should be locked up on some island with nothing but the Quran . he he

    Let us see how they survive . Of course, just giving aid will not solve the problem .The root problem has to be addressed.

  5. Mathew

    The big problem is indeed “who will bell the cat” I dont know what would happen if my proposal where put into practice, the chances are probably it will never be.

    At least not in my proposed absolute form.

    But the mere act of putting it on the table will raise many eye brows and hopefully get a few people to think.

    I currently actively campaign to execute this as proposed, (cut all aid, until people drop their old superstition) people see me as extreme , but this very fact ensures i get kilometers of column space and it sparks a flora of public debate.

    My single act of being politically incorrect has generated countless new ideas and wide public discourse.

    Of course this has its costs just today i received 3 letters containing death treats, they dont scare me though.

    If i where attacked the following public outrage would spark even more change. I would happily suffer a broken nose, if it changed the world for the better.

    The question everyone schould ask themselves isnt in my opinion (what negative consequences will we have to endure to achieve change)

    The question schould be: what is the cost for humanity by doing nothing to bring about change?

    In our world, in the daily struggle for survival on planet earth. Things either change and adapt or go extinct.

    So we are left with a simple choice, do we have the courage to bring about change? (should we help people in the west bank) or schould we allow them to die out?

    I think its wrong to dress up the problem in political correctness, we give millions of tons of food aid but we do nothing to address the underlaying problems?

    By doing so we effectively prolong their suffering because it will take even longer to bring about real change.

    Its like treating cancer with aspirin, the recipient might feel ok for an hour but it does nothing to address the cause of the problem, the real cure is horribly painful but it is what the cancer patient has to go through if he wants any chance at all to cure the disease.

  6. Muzolf says:

    Probably at mee too. Weeel you see the hungarian spell check doesnt helps much when typing in english eather.

  7. Mathew Philip Mattathu says:

    Agular , are you an English teacher ? If you have something to post , do so . This is not an English forum . I know your post was not directed at me but at EMP but then again , not everybody is good at English . If you were to write in Norwegian , you would probably suck big time

  8. Mathew Philip Mattathu says:

    See, the thing is that when the Taliban came to power , most Afghanis did not want to live under Islamic rule but they were scared that if they spoke a word, they would be killed. The same with the Hamas. If someone comes up with such a proposal , people would want to say to hell with religion and we want food but the question will be who will bell the cat ? Who will make the first move ? I know Arabs . They can be very cruel . Trust me . You also have experience. People would want to isolate Hamas but would they since they fear for their lives ?
    If all AID agencies pulled out ,would the Hamas agree not to interfere ? Do you really think or are you really sure ? The truth is that we do not know what will transpire . The Hamas enjoys the status it has now . It proclaims itself to the savior of the people there but if it feels that it is in danger of losing that status , all hell will break loose. What benefit ? Belief is what drives me . I mean I have my own discretion but I do feel more at peace and control myself by believing . I think you will say then it is more spiritual . But praying does make me feel better and more at peace with myself . Add to it the miracles I have experienced in my life. I will wait for your other post.
    Your example again depends on how people would react . Remember , people in Iran and Afghanistan were among the most liberal Muslims until the Islamic revolutions in their respective countries. Even now , I am sure most people hate it but they can’t voice their opinions because they are ruled by a minority of people who have all the power and the weapons .Get it ?
    Did not know Attaturk did that in Turkey . Lol . Brilliant idea . I wish more people were like him … ha ha

  9. Agular says:

    Try using a spell checker to make yourself seem a bit more credible.

  10. Islamic fundamentalist would in deed go rabid from such a proposal, that is part of the issue. How many people would still support hamas if that meant you would starve?

    Faced with the choice between superstitious ideology and dogma VS eating! hamas would be isolated within a week.

    Lets say all the aid agencies pulled out until hamas guaranteed not to interfere in their operations?

    I know its a horrible thing to collectively punish the entire vest bank population, but we are left with very few choices? If our goal is to affect change we dont have many options at all.

    I cant see what possible benefit you derive from believing? you are in all other areas, or at least you seam to be rational.

    I will deal with the perceived goodness of the christian faith in a later post.

    As to a group of norwegians going to the west bank:
    Like any proposal its success is dependent on presentation, If we go and proclaim leave islam receive aid we wont get anywhere at all.

    If we turn it around we might have a chance

    Example:
    Everyone that want to support Hamas and remain under occupation in the west bank must declare their support for radical islam and stay behind.

    The rest of you come with us to receive free education on how to re build a new society , everyone must attend in order to receive food and housing.

    Or something like that.

    Like attaturk in turkey he signed into law that all prostitutes had to wear a head scarf (of course noone used a head scarf after that)

    Today the west bank is practically isolated anyway, the difference is noone can ever get out. There are no viable options on the table to bring the process forward.

  11. Mathew Philip Mattathu says:

    Probably , more people would choose survival over religion but only if they are not coerced into choosing vice versa. I would however like to see how one could employ such a method because any AID agency trying to do so in say the West bank would be destroyed by Islamic fundamentalists. I do not know how many agency members would put their risk on the line. I have lived among Arabs and know how many of them are so crazy about their religion that the moment you say something bad about Islam they would turn into maniacs. Not a nice sight. Very scary to say the least.

    You are likely to find good there is very different from you are sure to find good there. EMP : To be honest, I have also thought about whether God really exists or not ? I have been brought up a Christian but then again my parents never forced me to do anything . I am an adult now and believe out of my own free will . I know religion is the main cause of conflict today and it is misused a lot . However, I am 28 years old and am no idiot . Not that you said I am one . These experiences are hard to explain . I mean how I was basically in shit and it was like some divine power pulled me out of it . How many people who burned the midnight oil flunked in exams and I passed easily . I mean these are minor examples. Now, you might attribute the last example to me being smart like many friends say I am a fast learner blah blah blah . I mean there are so many instances my friend…

    The human mind can be easily fooled into believing anything and that is why many religious zealots use ignorant people for their own vested interests.

    I am not asking anyone to be Christian . I am just saying the basic tenets of Christianity preach love and not hatred. The fact remains however that many Christians have committed atrocities in the name of Christianity . So ,you think that there is something wrong with their religion as such .

    Yes, there are many hypocrites who would criticize you in public to support popular opinion . However, that is done because they do not want to be ostracized . Your idea is good. It is the implementation of it that will face a lot of obstacles…. Let me ask you

    Imagine a group of young Norwegian girls and guys going to the West Bank and telling the Muslims there who live in wretched conditions “ You guys will get all you want . Just leave Islam “ . I certainly don’t want to be any one of those young Norwegians who have come all the way from one of the best countries to live in . The girls would be raped probably and the guys lynched. …. Think about it

  12. Muzolf

    We would have to be, or dear to be so direct as to say this goes against religious dogma, this dogma is in fact part of the problem you find yourself in.

    Then we give them a choice false hope or real assistance, i dont think history is a good guide here because people where not given any choice ” this is gods will deal with it ” Only a very select few would actually choose superstition over survival, food, prosperity. If they where really given a choice.

    I cant imagine, even if you went to the west bank once a year and gave people the following choice. give up your ancient superstition and i will give you and your descendants a decent life. i bet over 50% would take the offer, as to the rest Fuck em let the morons die in their own filth, if they are not mart enough to see the obvious way to a better life let them continue to suffer.

    Mathew

    It still sounds like you have a sceved view of your experience, “I have experienced such stuff umpteen times” just like people want to see aliens in crop circles (even though everyone knows its a hoaks we even know who makes them) my point is if you want good to be there you are likely to find good there.

    Allow me to illustrate, the human mind is a feeble thing that is quite easily fooled into believing or thinking pretty much anything, our own desires play a big part in how we experience the world, anyway here is the illustration

    Don not think of a blue elephant.

    What animal did you think of and what color is it? we are really simple creatures, and i know many people need a spiritual aspect in their life. i dont want to deny people this but i am convinced that the spiritual experience must be divorced from organized religion as it today. Organized religion are just endless pitt of human misery, its ignorance preached by the ignorant and willfully blind. Unless we do something it will probably be the end of the human race as we know it.

    Aid agencies in Norway are just like any other enterprise dependent on public opinion, they all fight for the “i will buy myself a good conscience” money so all i have to do is to influence public opinion.

    People call me all kinds of things in public but once they get to the privacy of their own home its a different story all together, what they say (to be politically correct) and what they do are to different things.

  13. Mathew Philip Mattathu says:

    I agree with Muzolf . Usually ,the very poor and the uneducated are the most crazy about religion in a negative way . They have no hope and all they think about life after death . So ,that is where the suicide bombers and the crazy people come from . Their leaders take advantage of them .

    I hope Turkey does not go to the dogs. I think that most Turkish Muslims ( from the cities ) either reject Islam or are moderate Muslims . This is what the world needs.

  14. Mathew Philip Mattathu says:

    Well, I understand your question but I believe in a super being because of my personal experiences. That is why I believe that the people who wrote the Bible had divine intervention in their lives. Translation from the original books might make the NT look contradictory . I had like to talk about it to some religious leaders and see what they have to say . Some might call me an apostate. I do not care . I told you that I can probably never make you understand because these are personal experiences. Maybe, when I do meet you one day in Oslo , we can talk about it . I am planning on visiting Oslo sometime this year.
    Well ,if you feel I am spiritual , it is a good thing . However, I do read the Bible daily , and pray twice a day . The experiences you are talking about is not divine. They are just a feeling of well being . I am talking about me feeling that there was someone to help me or save me when I had no one else. I mean I could brush it off as coincidence if it happened only once or twice. The truth is that I have experienced such stuff umpteen times.

    Looking forward to your argument about the comparative goodness of the Christian faith . I wish you all luck in your campaign . Wish I could help .The thing I like about you is that you not only talk but you also act. I still shudder to think of what you went through in the KSA. Hats off to you . You can argue your case with the Norway government but can you make the AID agencies the government agencies in say Somalia agree ? Think of the example I wrote about in my earlier post. Everything should be open for discussion be it religion or whatever. Nothing is exempt. People should be ready to face criticism . That is part and parcel of life. I do understand your points but I still do not think religion is baseless unless it makes you or encourages you to do bad. Where does the NT encourage hatred like say the Hadiths do ? It has some contradictory parts but that is again open to interpretation . For example : The NT says taking strong drink is not good . So , is drinking alcohol bad or is it that you should not consume amounts that will make you probably do crazy things ? I would use my discretion here. The truth is that the NT is not as contradictory as the Quran or the Hadiths. Take a look . You know that and I know that. I do not see the NT saying or asking its followers to distance themselves from non Christians….
    This is my point …..

  15. Muzolf says:

    I mean, make things worst. Damn, i cant type.

  16. Muzolf says:

    Matt i know, but this actually happened before in Turkey. If the same happens as in all the other cases where the elected leaders abused their position and islamists tried to take control, the turkish army will launch a military coup again. ( Would it be the third or the fourth time, i dont know. )

    It happened before, and this time, it may even not be necessary, as certain institution overseeing the work of the goverment consider dismissing their president, or so it was int the news.

    Escaped, you might be right, but there is an equal chance that it would make things works. Extreme conditions, poverty and starvation actually helped religion to spread, several times. Remember, the Roman empire persecuted christians as a dangerous cult and a minority until it was prosperous, but as soon as the empire went into decline in several aspects, christanity gained the upper hand.

    Maybe, social collapse would disempower Islam, and lead to real pgorgess in the end, but in my opinion, it could just as well lead to the appearance to an even more agressive, and opressive abrahamic religion as the ones allready known. After all, people who have nothing, tent to cling to false hopes provided by these religions. Especially if they dont really recognise, that religion itself is the reason why they have nothing else.

    You think the europeans knew, that the actions of the church, the stupid rules against body hygene and the killing of cats actually helped spreading the plage? Heck no, they just clinged to christanity even more. Individual people might be intelligent, but people as a mass are acting like stupid cattle, fearing the imaginary wolf, they readily walk into the slaughterhouse.

  17. I never said you denied that? I just wanted to ask how can you derive any relevant guidance from the NT if its open to your interpretation anyway? Wouldn’t it be better to just trust your own moral intuition in the first place? In stead of clouding it in bronze age mysticism?

    Again i would argue that your view of this is more spiritual than openly religious, i think that is a good thing.

    What baffles me is that you realize that this is written by people, admittedly by people you believe to have been intervened with by some deity, but it makes no sense at all why you would rely on this ancient claim of divine intervention to be true compared to any other historical or recent spiritual claim be it budism, Zews, Islam, new age stuff, Mormonism, etc, etc, etc.

    You can probably have such divine experiences yourself either via meditation or through narcotic substances.

    What i cant understand is why would a human being in the modern world shoose ancient literature, that you know to be both faulty and fictional as your guide for living your life?

    I will argue my case on the comparative goodness of the Christian faith versus any other in a later post, I know you have strong views in this regard so it will be interesting to hear what you have to say on my thoughts on the subject.

    I am actively campaigning for such a shift in policy in Norway, its not a hard argument to make, the only objection is the extra cost of the educational elements, but that is not a valid counter argument.

    We have after all been puring out aid for decades to no avail, if we could make it effective it would quickly pay dividends in the reduced need for aid.

    If it works or not time will tell, what i do know is that aid in its current form makes no difference what so ever, we might as well pile the money in the town square and make a bond fire, current efforts doesn’t work at all.

    “Religion is a tool for the cunning to keep people ignorant and gullible” I couldnt have said it better myself, this is why we must change our culture to allow criticism of all religious belief, we must drive religion from mainstream acceptance to a fringe exorcise.

    Objective review of any religion will leave any free thinking individual in no doubt that religion is utter nonsense! imagine how we would see a person professing to worship zews or any other god of the ancient greeks? Such a person will probably be locked up in a mental institution.

    My point being noone has presented any evidence or even credible argument that any of the modern religions be it islam budism or chrisitanity have anything more to offer than the old greek mythology.

    When i confront religious people with this obvious fact the only ansver they seem able to present is “that is what i believe”

    I want to know how can otherwise rational people that would demand proof or argue against for example islam or greek mythology turn around simply to adopt another faith that is every bit as incredible, contradictory and improbable as Islam ???

  18. Mathew Philip Mattathu says:

    The NT and the whole Bible is open to interpretation . When did I deny that ? However, the NT has been laid down for Christians and the NT does encourage a lot of good . I do agree that some of the text is open to interpretation . I believe that the NT was written by people who had some kind of divine intervention in their lives. However, remember that the NT has been translated into English . A lot happens when texts are translated. Do not get me wrong. I am not trying to give excuses. I think you know me well enough by now at least given that we have been on this topic for seven months . I just believe that we should take the good of our texts and if we have a doubt about any other part of it , we should try and figure it out . Better to interpret it in a way that will do good than in a way that will do bad.

    Of course, I never said that Christians have been peaceful . They have done a lot of shit in the name of Christianity . You also say the only real difference is the way Islamists go about oppressing and murdering people ….. That is a big difference. I only tried to say that Islamic fundamentalists are way more dangerous than any other fundamentalists…..

    Regarding your last point my friend : You are spot on . Good idea. However, do you think the people who run the government would accept such an Aid program . Say ,for example , in Somalia ,where there are many Muslims . If you say that okay ,your people are starving.,,.I will give you Aid but you have to listen to criticism about Islam .Those idiots in power will ask you to get lost . I understand what you are saying but the people in power in such countries want their people to believe in Islam and be stupid and listen to them .. Religion is a tool for the cunning to keep people ignorant and gullible .Don’t you get it ? Why do you think there are many Christian sects ? Catholics, Orthodox , Protestant et al ? It was not mainly because people did not agree. It was also because there could be more leaders. If there were only Catholics, they would only have X leaders… If you have more sects, there can be more leaders. Many of them were just greedy for power and did not care two hoots about Jesus or Christianity ….

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